A bad experience--we went to a place that is famous for accommodating people with FAs and DS had a reaction because they don't get sesame allergy at all IMO.  Very scary. We are sitting there and I see DS's lip start to turn all red and get slightly puffy and push his dish away from him.  I stare at him while shoving my pricey meal into my mouth because I don't know if we are about to inject him with epi and spend the next how long in the ER.  I inhale my food, continue to stare at DS and question him over and over.  Thankfully things did not develop.  The staff did not get that it was a potential emergency situation even after they realized DS was having a minor reaction. They were concerned with looking at a book with ingredients to find the cause than in DS it seemed to me.  Looking in the book I quickly realized they used a sauce that easily could have had sesame in it.  It was so frustrating to me because we had looked forward to eating there for YEARS.  DS wanted to eat in a fancy place and in the type of restaurant that we ate in--a type of food usually totally off limits if not homemade to people with his allergy set.  I felt suddenly we were in a very small box.  The world seemed to shrink down and I felt he was much less safe than I had before that meal.  The thought of DS traveling or eating out anywhere seemed much less safe.  I was quite upset for a while after that.  I wrote to them and they didn't write back. They refunded our meal only after I called and requested it.  That should have been offered then and there on the day.   

I think that was our only really bad experience.

Oh, no, it wasn't.  DS had ana after eating in one of our favorite places once.  It was quite scary.  We think we know the cause.  DS lied and said he felt fine when he didn't.  He later got breathing trouble and I had to epi him and he had to go to the ER.  Not fun.  But somehow it was much less frustrating than the reaction he had in the above place since that places is touted as being so great with FAs. 

But there are times we didn't expect safe food and found it and found places that would rival Disney World for how they handle food allergies (or beat Disney, frankly) and we have been THRILLED.  It is a huge treat for us all.   

I like Jshwab's suggestions, esp the ideas to train the kitchen and wait staff.  I do not think that this training will result in people being better able at hiding that they don't believe in FAs as CM said but that it would raise awareness and make FA people safer.

When my child was little I was embarrassed to ask for accommodations anywhere.  Embarrassed to carry his food into restaurants.  Embarrassed to tell others we couldn't go to their potluck due to his allergies, to ask his preschool for accommodations, to call companies to ask about ingredients in food, etc.

I got over that since then.  I treat these things as just matters of fact.  People may say or do stupid things in response (usually they do not) and if so it reflects badly on *them*.  I'm just dealing with the reality that my child has potentially life threatening FAs and I have to do these things to keep him safe.  If someone wants to think I'm crazy or annoying or a bit*h or whatever, that's much better than my child having a reaction so I don't appear crazy or annoying to someone uneducated about FAs. 

We have mostly had good experiences eating out because we are super picky.  If people don't seem like they know what they are doing we don't eat there.

There is one local place where I ate while nursing DS.  I would ask for dairy-free (and free of his other allergens) and was assured they are great with FAs.  I got food with cheese sprinkled on it twice!  Once they took it back and brushed things off the top!  I stopped going and then recently called to see if DS could eat there as they have steak/burgers and he eats that stuff now.  The manager told me they could not guarantee it would be 100% allergy-free, etc.  This is a bunch of BS.  They could certainly make food that was safe for food allergic people if it were a priority for them.  It is clearly not and it did make me angry at the time.  And I guess I feel a bit ticked off if I think of it now.  But we will take our business elsewhere.  I focus on the great service we get elsewhere.  I tell DS all the time that if he is older and his friends go somewhere other than our usual restaurants he is to just have soda and sit there hungry if necessary.  He can carry starburst with him and eat those but just don't take silly chances.  I teach him about the research involved in finding safe places to eat.  I explain why he can't eat certain things in these places.  I hope that by the time he is old enough he will be able to do this all without me.

Do you know about Allergyeats website?  Check it out.  I think it is a good tool.  If you find places that have 5 stars for your allergy set you can feel pretty confident they are going to be good for you and will not embarrass you. 

When I go to places that are good with food allergies they already have protocols in place.  Our local Moes has staff trained.  The manager comes over, changes her gloves and carefully makes DS's food.  She gets him special salsa from the back.  The manager puts his food directly into his basket rather than passes it down the line as is normally done. 

At our favorite sit down place the managers remember us and come up and greet us.  They always double check with the chefs to be sure our food will be specially made and they bring it out to us themselves and reassure us it is safe.  When we order they write down everything we say--all DS's allergens, to cook DS's food in clean pans with allergy-free oil, with clean utensils, etc. 

The pizza places we eat have procedures to make pizza away from cheese, cut the pizza with a clean knife etc. 

This is nice.  We don't have to ask or teach--these places know what they are doing and so we frequent them.   

I hope you can find a bunch of safe places near you where you can eat easily, too.

We are grateful to the places that get it.  It is getting easier and easier as more and more people with FAs eat out. 

I fully agree that we help each other's children.

Without planning on it, I have paved the way in two school districts for other children with FAs. We were the first 504 in both places.

And more than just my child benefited from my taking the science museum to task (including letters to specific board members and program staff) after they said my son could not attend dinosaur camp. That was my first encounter with the DOJ.   the next year, that museum's summer camp was safe, safe for my son and and one other FA kid.

Yeah--we do help each other out. I am hoping the parents behind me are a little grateful that things are easier for them.

Well aware of all the terms.  Family has over 50 years in the law field including 30 years as judge.  We held a public school system accountable and won.  Allergen kids in the system are as safe as they have ever been.  More 504 plans, inclusion, ADA requirements, and numerous other enforceable items implemented.  No superhero cape here.  I view it in simple terms.  If there is anything I can do that can possibly make 1 allergen child safer, I will pursue all options and feel I have a responsibility to do so.  If tackling the low hanging fruit does not include children with multiple allergens, that is unfortunate.  Does this mean nothing should be done to try to protect kids with single allergens?   I don't think it does.  If anyone thinks it is wrong to try to recover medical costs incurred because of negligence of a private restaurant, then I disagree.   Continuous improvement is needed in the restaurant industry and states like Massachusetts and Rhode Island demonstrated improvement by implementing the Food Allergen Awareness requirement in state law.  Regarding the comment about counter allegations of Applebee's, this is the first reaction at any restaurant we have ever frequented.  A major goal of the Food Allergen Awareness Law is training and educational materials to reduce so-called cross-contamination during food preparation.  According to the Justice Department, the public accommodation provisions of the ADA requires a restaurant or other business to take some reasonable steps to accommodate individuals with disabilities where it does not result in "fundamental alteration" of that restaurant's operations.   Using the same spoon that was used on ice cream for an egg-free dessert is not a fundamental alteration.  'Negligence' doesn't care whether something is explicitly stated on a menu or not.  At the end of the day we all have our own methods to ensure the safety of own children, while also trying to positively impact the safety of others with FA's.  I respect all that have similar day to day battles and the challenges that are met whether at school, restaurants, etc., but will continue on my quest to hold people accountable for actions that could be prevented.   Hope that all your children stay safe!!!!

"Otherwise, we (as consumers) are basically punishing them for a good-faith effort to give us what we've asked for. " - CMDeux

This is it. No one will serve us if lawsuits like this gain traction. What kills me is Applebees employees has been embroiled in allergy criticism for a long time and it's well-known as a no-no. And they don't even make sure they pay their employees minimum wage. Do I really expect someone who may or may not even be getting minimum wage to remember all of the complex systems management that would be required to keep a highly allergic person alive? I wouldn't and I am not sure it's reasonable for anyone to have that expectation of a busy restaurant kitchen, as thankful as I am when they do pop up. Always praise, praise praise and an easy acceptance of apologies from restaurants when they have screwed up. I don't want to ruin it for the next person by jumping down a waiter's throat when they accidentally bring butter to the table.

On another note, I would personally never open myself up to the counter allegations about why I didn't take reasonable care in keeping myself safe by paying attention to some very explicit messaging from the restaurant. That would be a very miserable day in court if the restaurant fought it.

Let's use terms.

FAPE, Title II, Title III, Section 504, public accommodations, fundamental nature, undue burden. Don't be shy, lay it on me. I am completely open how a private lawsuit is a greater disability protection than what federal regulations in existence enforced by the Dept of Justice and/or Dept of Education have afforded.

Step on up. Tell me how it's going to get done or take off the superhero cape return it to the costume store and stop flying kids like mine under your banner of a lawsuit against Applebee's. I fight for my child's educational rights both mainstream and special ed. We travel thousands of miles and spend thousands of dollars to see the best known to modern science, the conferences with global insight. That is my blood, sweat, tears and dollars--not yours.

Sue Applebee's if you want but don't spin it as if you're doing something on my child's behalf. I fight my own battles and you are not in the MFA, special ed, going broke on medical bills trenches with me. I have a limited amount of good will the largely ignorant public has regarding food allergies. Our children have civil rights for public education. Picking battles becomes important.

Don't forget to let me know how the MFA kid with non top 8 allergens is going to benefit. Unless... you're not really talking true inclusion of all just the bell curve majority.

I don't disagree with much of that-- and I don't think that anyone is saying that one should NOT pursue recourse when there is clear negligence and a pattern indicating that reasonable care and accommodation isn't happening.   Particularly with schools, where there is a transfer of the duty of care of an allergic child.  That is a separate issue from the restaurant one, though.

However, I do stand by the assertion that all we'll do for food allergic persons is make life HARDER unless the punishment comes with some additional reward for getting it RIGHT.  Lawsuits, IMO, generally only result in the industry feeling wary of serving us at all.  In other words, it's far easier to slap a disclaimer on the door and ignore requests entirely than to risk the lawsuit.  This is a known risk that WE are in a far better position to evaluate than the restaurant staff will ever be-- that's the nature of food allergy being so idiosyncratic.  Chances are pretty high that some egg allergic people would have had no problem at all from the same exposure, and others would have had the same result that you did.  The question, though, is whether or not their fundamental activity presents a risk to you personally... but not a risk which is so general that it can be considered to be a matter of regular population-based food safety.  For example, is it okay for a diabetic consumer to insist that a sugar-free dessert be prepared for him/her?  Is it okay for someone with a port to ask for a liquified menu selection?  Can someone with sensory issues request a specific modification to a menu item?   

"Reasonable" remember, means that they do NOT have to make alterations to the fundamental nature of what they do.  If their menu is fixed, then that's at least potentially a matter of fundamental nature.  Food prep may well be-- if they simply do not have the logistical ABILITY to make accommodations during a dinner rush, they are probably entitled to say so.  Otherwise, we (as consumers) are basically punishing them for a good-faith effort to give us what we've asked for.  I guess this is why going after restaurants in the wake of a reaction bothers me some.  I don't see how it can possibly result in anything but disclaimers and a sharply attenuated desire to serve any person who mentions food allergy.


We don't bother with restaurants that don't do right by us-- but with those that do, we TELL them how important it is to us-- repeatedly, and with our repeat business. 

I do think that assuming that any allergen, any threshold can (should?) be accommodated at any restaurant setting is both unrealistic and maybe even foolhardy.   I also doubt that most consumers are ever going to have an accurate sense of what took place in a kitchen that led to a reaction-- at least not when cross-contamination is involved.  Training in food safety doesn't mean training in avoiding cross-contact (other than for food-borne illness), and most people with food allergies keep allergen-free homes in order to reduce the very real risk of an error like that.  Sometimes people are just human, YK?  It happens.

  There's a lot of grey area here between accidental cross-contact in a way-too-busy kitchen and deliberately ignoring a food allergic person's requests and knowingly serving something which is probably contaminated.

I consider the former a failure of the food allergic person to use common sense and due diligence.  Unfortunate, but it's ultimately an error in the FA person's judgment.  The latter is the restaurant's fault.  Everything in between, there is plenty of blame to go around.  Food allergic consumers are in the BEST position to understand both the risks and the "how" of cross-contact-- not waitstaff, not kitchen staff.  We also are pretty much never in a position where we MUST partake of restaurant food at a particular establishment at a particular time.   Therefore, what I'm entitled to under the law is not nearly so extensive as in government services or a public school.

Quote from: kcw on November 20, 2013, 02:46:56 PM
My wife and I spent countless hours with the school system to ensure not only the safety of our own children, but also the safety of many others.  Reaction after reaction and failures that would not be addressed was the reason for going the legal route.  Immunity was tossed around. You couldn't pursue legal action.  All I can say is that we were VERY pleased with the outcome and there are hundreds of students that are MUCH safer today prior to our involvement, and accountability was served. 
Restaurants?  They do have a legal responsibility and the failure to use reasonable care that results in harm is a problem.  I'm only speaking of my own children with egg allergies, and not those who suffer from several allergens.  I realize that is much more difficult.  A restaurant must make reasonable accomodations without total disruption to their business.  A kitchen employee used a cross contaminated spoon that had ice cream on it and used it on a dessert from the egg allergen menu.  Legal recourse for our family is to recover the $4,500 that I had to pay for someone's negligence.  Agree or not, I consider that accountability and may add that Applebee's will never be on our list of approved restaurants.

I'd be curious where that goes. Applebee's really is the one restaurant chain that has always  - for years - been upfront on their website about not being able to prevent cross-contamination. Who says they must make reasonable accommodations? I have never heard that they have any legal requirement, either through industry standards or legally. I am not against lawsuits as a corrective action and I think they can be very valuable, but I think it's hard to claim failed responsibility at a restaurant that explicitly says it cannot prevent cross-contamination.

My wife and I spent countless hours with the school system to ensure not only the safety of our own children, but also the safety of many others.  Reaction after reaction and failures that would not be addressed was the reason for going the legal route.  Immunity was tossed around. You couldn't pursue legal action.  All I can say is that we were VERY pleased with the outcome and there are hundreds of students that are MUCH safer today prior to our involvement, and accountability was served. 
Restaurants?  They do have a legal responsibility and the failure to use reasonable care that results in harm is a problem.  I'm only speaking of my own children with egg allergies, and not those who suffer from several allergens.  I realize that is much more difficult.  A restaurant must make reasonable accomodations without total disruption to their business.  A kitchen employee used a cross contaminated spoon that had ice cream on it and used it on a dessert from the egg allergen menu.  Legal recourse for our family is to recover the $4,500 that I had to pay for someone's negligence.  Agree or not, I consider that accountability and may add that Applebee's will never be on our list of approved restaurants.

+ 2 to Twinturbo, too. I was LUCKY at Five Guys. They have a very simple menu and they have very specific practices for handling food. I think the fact that staff are mostly able to accommodate has to do with training, sure, but also with the fact that I could watch my food being made and the staff always is English-proficient because of the business model.

I think I have learned that I can't expect anyone to keep me safe except me. That is a tough one to swallow for some, for sure, but it's the only reasonable approach.

I would rather see lawsuits to boost wages and secure health insurance for restaurant workers, many of whom probably can't afford auto-injectors if their own kids have LTFA.

^ +1

Honestly, it would probably help food allergic consumers MORE to understand completely what they are up against.  Unless you've worked in food service (and recently) you may really just not understand why some things work the way that they do.

In most places, kitchen staff is bilingual... or does not have good English literacy.

So a chef card, a conversation, etc. is all useless unless you have someone translating in real time.

The level of motivation to handle food allergies is utterly idiosyncratic, in my experience.  It varies too widely to generalize.  We, like Mac and her family, eat out a fair amount.  But we choose our restaurants with risk in mind, (based on the menu) and are still reliant on our gut to tell us whether or not a particular occasion/server/etc is giving us a bad vibe or a good one.

I also completely "get" wanting that conversation or management to not be front and center, for it NOT to be the center of attention for one's companions, etc.  Unfortunately, unless you do a ton of preparation up front, that's not realistic.  We've done that, by the way, for one-time occasions where DD (or myself) really needed to be non-obtrusive in a particular setting, but it's not easy and it takes a LOT of time and cooperation from the food service staff.  How does that work?

1.  call ahead-- OUTSIDE of rush times-- and ask to speak with the manager who will be on-staff and managing the kitchen staff when you will be there (in a week, a few days, whatever)

2.  explain your allergies, and ask questions-- make a plan for what you will order and how you will communicate with your server at the time, how kitchen staff will be instructed to handle your meal, etc.  DECIDE whether or not this is "safe enough" in your estimation, or

3.  Thank the person for their time and explain that you will probably NOT be ordering food, but may order beverages (again, comfort zone and past history taken into account).

Otherwise, a chef card is about as good as it gets-- but just understand that even if your server can read it and understand it, that doesn't mean that the kitchen staff can.

What suit would be brought against a restaurant? For that matter what suit can be brought against a school to change the federal protections already in place? Sure, you could receive damages for something like costs incurred for not receiving FAPE or disability harassment but the backbone of any suit or complaint filed would mean prevailing on law already in existence. Resolving a complaint would entail bringing a school into compliance.

Different set of laws between public schools and restaurants with regard to ADA. I mean if we're talking fundamental nature of a business it's to serve food. Not even FALCPA cover cross-contamination. If anything proposed legislation is moving towards establishing 'safe' thresholds for the majority allergic population, which further marginalizes those with lowest threshold. If you look at how these studies are emerging you'll see it being done with the blessing of doctors who we aren't even the patients of.

*shrug* I await my epic schooling. Please own me outright by showing me how under current law restaurants will be made safe for LTFA. Make sure to include MFA, non top 8, non chain locally owned restaurants, franchisees, non-English environments having equal access to legislative material as English speaking environments.

I can't wait to hear how we can take DS2 with about 10-12 anaphylaxis-inducing substances including a significant number of non-top 8 to dim sum.

Quote from: Macabre on November 20, 2013, 09:20:22 AM
But if I get the sense that the server is not capable of passing my order to the kitchen as I need it to be given, there's no point in staying.

Dealing with DS' food allergies since 1999 and my own since 2005, we have indeed encountered rude waiters who obviously don't get it. It's just not been the majority of the time.

We've left several restaurants either because:
1) waitstaff did not understand our concerns either because of a language barrier or some other "getting it" barrier--they just didn't.

2) the manager didn't get it

3) given our allergies we could not dine safely there (usually because of mine)

4) snarky waitstaff


We were in a Cracker Barrel once and told the waitress about our allergies and what i avoid (the grill, fried things).  She did a few eye rolls. That was enough, but when we mentioned DS is a vegetarian, she said, "well, I don't know why you came here." 

I said, "Neither do I" and left.

I have left restaurants, too, over that kind of thing, but that has been rare. Cracker Barrel should have a better way to deal with is since they are a chain, though, with better professional decorum. What I find interesting is that the very low-paid fast food staff have always been the best for me - least rude and most competent. Maybe it's because fast-food restaurants are speed-oriented and thrive on uniformity? It just always killed me that fancy maitre d's at the finest restaurants could be so poor in their craft and poorly-paid high school students literally kept me alive and reaction-free every day I ate at Five Guys (before I developed nuts as an allergy). I had to travel a lot for my old job and Five Guys was the only place I could eat in most cities. Those kids are angels and I wish I could thank them enough. One time when I was in a situation in DC at the Five Guys I was not being as forthcoming about my allergy because I was with a new professional acquaintance and the woman behind the counter did not seem to get it and my companion piped up "She could die!". The woman taking my order looked me in the eye and said  "Not on my shift, baby!". And everything was fine. I have no idea what they do there to the staff to make them get it, but I have eaten at at least 30 Five Guys all over the country and always been fine. And I always try to write a note.

But if I get the sense that the server is not capable of passing my order to the kitchen as I need it to be given, there's no point in staying.

Dealing with DS' food allergies since 1999 and my own since 2005, we have indeed encountered rude waiters who obviously don't get it. It's just not been the majority of the time.

We've left several restaurants either because:
1) waitstaff did not understand our concerns either because of a language barrier or some other "getting it" barrier--they just didn't.

2) the manager didn't get it

3) given our allergies we could not dine safely there (usually because of mine)

4) snarky waitstaff


We were in a Cracker Barrel once and told the waitress about our allergies and what i avoid (the grill, fried things).  She did a few eye rolls. That was enough, but when we mentioned DS is a vegetarian, she said, "well, I don't know why you came here." 

I said, "Neither do I" and left.

Ah, see, I have a really different image of people in food. I have never experienced that allergic people are the butt of jokes, nor do I think waitstaff don't care and they DO think food allergies are real. I have a lot of friends in the restaurant and food manufacturing industry, both chefs and servers and I have NEVER gotten the impression that the culture is one of disdain. Even before I had allergies, I recall serious discussions with them about serving people with allergies and their fear of hurting someone. Many servers themselves have food allergies or have friends or family with allergies so they get it. I think people lying about allergies is likely not as prevalent as it's made out to be.

Do I expect EVERY restaurant to be able to deal with my admittedly very sensitive allergies? No, because not every restaurant has a system in place or the right kitchen setup for that. And that's OK. I think it's great that efforts are made to improve those things and that awareness is high. Am I more concerned that institutions like hospital cafeterias, prison, airports, schools and nursing homes be better able to deal with it? Yes, because people don't usually have a choice in the matter.

I personally don't really expect nor have I experienced any hostility or disdain in any way but there are subtleties to behavior that waitstaff could be better equipped to handle (like a delay with an allergy dish that holds up a whole table).

I don't think you can create guarantees by creating a PSA about how people with allergies would be more comfortable if interactions played out in an X way and not a Y way. No one is going for creating an industry-wide zeroing out of risk for people with allergies, just trying to address if there are ways to not make them feel singled out or a burden during the ordering and serving process. I think that is a great thing to address because a lot of servers struggle with knowing how to handle it.

Editing to add: I don't know if this is clear to everyone, but while a server may sometimes have a hand in doing something like removing a bun that has contaminated and thinking they are in the clear, almost ALL food allergy responsibility lies with the kitchen. A server can do everything right and still there could be problems if the kitchen is not equipped. This is why a waiter with a bad attitude may still keep you safe and the motherly server whose own kid has a deathly peanut allergy can end up killing you. They have little control. And this can vary widely in the industry. Outback has adopted amazing allergy practices. The nearly identical Longhorn has not. Applebees has ALWAYS for years said they will not guarantee that food will be allergen-free and they don't expect it to be allergen-free due to their processes. Personally, I am of the opinion that if you eat at a chain that tells you upfront there will be cross-contamination, you are assuming the risk.