Quote from: CMdeux on January 03, 2012, 03:47:29 PM


Maybe SOME university settings don't think it's a big deal.  I assure you, Ark, that others very definitely DO.  Any course in which the lab instructor is willing to ignore basic safety isn't one that I think much of, frankly.  It kind of says "you're disposable" to the students. 

You can think anything you want, but it doesn't make it true.

I guarantee you, our science, math, and music departments (and probably others, but those are the departments I have some experience with) are top notch. Competitive, and probably of the caliber that would put any in your area to shame. (but then again, it's probably part of why your child isn't in a b and m program, and you are none too fond of the cyber/online program she is in, either. )

But I actually have children in b and m schools.

I've been in them, at all academic levels, also, and I can say they are held in high regard by the academic and post graduate community. They eagerly await our graduates, and if you don't want to take it from me, you can take it from another community member here, who would probably be willing to vouch for a highschool in my community, as their cousin is principal in the building.  (and to that member, please, don't out our location).

You could probably look up the stats for yourself. We get invited to some very prestigious um....developments. (please see pm)

Really, I wouldn't impugn an entire science department based on your criteria, no more than I'd judge a nurse based on whether she takes her ten minute break during a 16 hour shift at her computer terminal.

But small world. Six degrees or less, right?    You just never know who lurks where. That said, I've let the hammer fall when I'm discontent with how things are going, and as critical as I am, I'm still pleased with the (again) calliber of programming and teacher involvement. When you actually have a young adult on the cusp of independence and point of no return, you begin to look at things differently, and I can honestly say I understand all that "real" world lingo now. It makes sense, even to my "rule oriented" self.

Well, uh, you know, until the public (and most everyone else stops treating hospital staff and nurses especially, like they ARE disposable, don't expect much else. )  You want professionalism there, you'll need to quit treating us like the dirt under your soles.  (general you)

i dare say school administration and staff could say the same.  Peoples humanity flies right out their a** when they set foot in a hospital or school. They expect blind indentured servitude and boot licking.  Nothing professional at all in that.  Its only going to get worse on all sides as The New Healthcare is implemented. lol.

When it comes to research laboratories, there are very sound REGULATORY reasons why keeping food out of lab spaces is critical.

In any space where biological, radiological or chemical hazards are present, food intended for human consumption is against the law.  Period.

It's a hazard.  Hell, CHEWING GUM is a hazard in some of those environments.

Now, I understand perfectly well that middle school science is a far cry from a research scaled fast nuetron generating nuclear reactor facility.

But I guarantee that some 8th graders SOMEWHERE right now will eventually wind up in one. 

No Quote Zone:

You would not believe the sh*tstorm-from-hell that it created for me, my boss, my boss' boss, and everyone else in the damned BUILDING and DEPARTMENT when one of the graduate students in my lab decided that having a cup of coffee at her (make that "my") desk four feet from a fully shielded P-32 workspace caused us all when we got (appropriately) a surprise walk-through inspection.  Let's just put it this way-- many, MANY mea cupla letters were written, and frankly we're all lucky that it didn't cost anyone a job.

GGA.  Until that time, the lab PI and I were pretty much the only people that thought it was any "big deal" to have food in the lab.  The attitude was much as you describe, Ark-- "we're careful, we know what's safe and what isn't... blah-blah-blah... no time for anything else... I've always done it this way... "

The thing is, it's also true that all it takes is a SINGLE moment of forgetfulness and you're dead meat, and it's entirely preventable. There are a number of documented (and many, many more 'suspected') instances of harm coming to researchers from food or beverages being in workspaces where they didn't belong.  A few end in fatalities, but heaven only knows how many result in cancers.  My boss?  Well, she had a "Silkwood" moment of her own thanks to an inadvertent (possible) internal I-131 exposure as a grad student that resulted in being under medical surveillance for YEARS afterwards.  She was lucky it was just a royal PITA and nothing more than a scare.  Once was enough, however and believe me, once something like that happens to you-- or once you witness a laboratory accident as an instructor-- remmebering to follow this particular "best practice" is a no brainer.

My spouse is also FOREVER getting on technicians and more junior lab personnel about food and drink in HIS lab spaces, too.  It's a real nightmare once people have LEARNED these bad habits... and there is plenty at stake in his very 'real world' position, tyvm.  It's an industrial accident waiting to happen, and it's DH's butt on the line if he knew about it and looked the other way, YK?  So he's constantly chasing out coffee, bottles of water, plates of cookies, etc.

End NQ Zone. (Thanks)

THAT is why "no food in the lab" is pretty damned important as a matter of habitual observation.  Just like wearing eye protection when you use power tools, really, or wearing a seatbelt, not yakking on a cell phone while you're driving.

Maybe SOME university settings don't think it's a big deal.  I assure you, Ark, that others very definitely DO.  Any course in which the lab instructor is willing to ignore basic safety isn't one that I think much of, frankly.  It kind of says "you're disposable" to the students. 

egads.No quoting... in every hospital I've worked in, people eat in the unit, despite health codes. when idph comes through, it gets tightened up, but the truth is, there's rarely time to eat off the unit, even when working 12 + hour shifts. <shrug>

I mean, people eat in their rooms, and rooms are probably "dirtier" than the areas staff eat in. I do object, however to families bringing in practically catered feasts and spreading it all over for "group" chow downs. Laypeople just don't seem to be aware of the potential harm, at least by the way I see them eat, and WHERE they put their food. I don't even see them wash their hands. 


end no quote.

Quote from: CMdeux on December 19, 2011, 10:27:40 AM
Y.U.C.K.


No food rules in science labs aren't just for immediate safety-- there is a reason why we begin enforcing those rules about closed footwear, long pants, hair tied back, NO EATING OR DRINKING... at middle school.

It's because we want kids to develop HABITS that keep them safe when they are in college and beyond.

A lab is NOT for eating in.

Highschool.

IEP.

All "food" lab materials are supposed to be approved by myself at least two weeks in advance.

No notice.

No approval.

My son didn't blink.

They made ice cream and ate it, in chemistry lab.

Then again, he's a Sophomore, and most teachers begin to treat "children" this age as an adult. I mean most of these kids are crawling ALLLLL over each other at football games and egads, don't SPEAK of what they do at homecoming. I can very well see where even a highschool teacher isn't going to second guess my son's judgement (and he checked the ingredients himself).

I asked him about the "equipment" he used and he said they used ziplocks and ATE it, and mixed it in the Chemistry lab which is one and the same as the classroom.

His very words were "since we couldn't have an 'end of the year party (semester)' we did this instead. It was something fun." (there are no "end of the year parties" and that's all he or I know of it)

I'm pretty sure that's not directly allergy related and just due to sheer time constraints. They move pretty rapidly, and cover much material. (at least compared to even my college level classes).

Don't fool yourself. I took OODLES of lab classes and we frequently had "afterhours" PIZZA parties studying IN the CADAVER lab with dead bodies buck a** naked. Parts everywhere.

Teacher made no mention of his allergies or anything food related to do with it, he checked the ingredients and equipment on his own, and I'm pretty sure the instructor is unaware of his allergy or has forgotten it entirely.

Don't have higher expectations for university. <shrug> Or his place of work. He owns it now. I wish he had some expectation of backup, and he does on paper, but not in the "real world". The document is nothing more than a security blanket, as dissapointing as that sounds.

my son's class year used peanut butter (in a 'safe'-HA!-plastic bag that my son was told to be careful with ) in an exercise involving different 'texture's whole exercise involved different types of foods in plastic bags that the kids got to 'feel' to experience the difference. No harm done but MAJOR repercussions resulted with some very good outcomes for the next line of allergic kids being taught by this teacher.
My SIL has coeliac disease and CANNOT understand that having anaphylaxis when eating barley (and therefore the efforts we need to go to to avoid it) is not the same as having to avoid gluten and the implications with an accidental exposure.
sorry to hear what you are going though.xx

I wouldn't OK the Guittard for 2 reasons:
1) I never let my child try something for the first time out of my watch (and total PITA for me to have to buy this specialty food in advance spending $$ to check the product...PLUS it is in a facility w/ almonds, so that is another reason
2) It goes against the NO FOOD verbal agreement in 504 meeting


This is totally supicious that it was scheduled for 12/23. She just wanted to serve a holiday treat disguised as science experiment 

This is crazy and stressful to the child/parent with LTFA. I think you need to drive the point that peanut allergy is LIFE THREATENING - and chocolate is notoriously unsafe for PA.  WHY would she want to take this risk in the classroom using risky foods?  Remind her that LTPA is different from celiac in that the LTFA child can have anaphylaxis, a LIFE THREATENING reaction from a tiny amount of the allergen.  The fact that she was even suggesting brands like Ghiradelli that are UNSAFE is ridiculous and shows that she does not "get it".

I wouldn't let her reschedule this for January.  Tell her she is putting you in an unfair situation and creating anxiety.  Why is this project so important?   Tell her you've talked to many other parents about 8th grade science and NONE of their classes are using food in experiments, so obviously it is not necessary.

Agreed.  I think that blurring that particular safety line in middle school is 

Really

Lab safty rules-
No eating in lab-  arent we teaching them to be adults?

Never heard of eating in a science lab..... it is dangerous.. even at 8th grade....

Yes, different blends of chocolate have different melting points. Though...cocao nibs are just roasted and broken up cocao beans --- which is entirely different that investigating/observing melting points of different ratios of chocolate to butterfat.

So on one hand --- he can participate if she ordered Guittard...which is peanut free and there are almonds in the facility, but NOT the same equipment. They have a statement on their website about wheat/gluten as well.

That cost, should be on her. She needs to have the same thing all day for all the labs. I can imagine things getting confused, drop a chip here, chip there, etc.  Also - whatever tools they are using. And if she gets may contains peanuts chips, then warmed up that'll be aerosolized.

Same thing, all day, all the labs. Guittard, ordered online for an arm and a leg.

I'll see if I can find this lab written up somewhere - might be able to do it using something else. And though I hate food based labs too, sometimes as a science educator you've got to employ these "connections" to everything things to (1) help students become engaged and (2) help them make a knowledge-memory-connection by using everything things (like food stuff).

Not that I agree with it, but it's a strategy that is out there.

Adrienne

So it is the melting point of a compound? Aren't there plenty of other options for compounds that melt?

yellow, thanks for the offer!! 
Oh, they said blah blah blah there's no food in science except one experiment that involves flour.

I'm wondering....does white chocolate, semi sweet chocolate and milk chocolate have different melting points?  that seems to be the crux of the experiment. 
oh and the tasting.   very scientific.  while it will give clues maybe about texture differences, would texture/taste affect melting points?
I'm going to google the name she gave the project.

Btw, I am so glad you and Ajas are posting about this. We will have the 504 meeting for 6th grade in the spring and I am absolutely bringing science experiments up specifically. I know we have to deal with home ec, but that should be the only food in his curriculum at school. Not science!

I can probably send you some if you remind me next week.

They shouldn't blame a student for the fact that a teacher can't come up with a different lesson plan. Seriously, there are SO many lesson plan websites. There has to be another way to do this. She's just not looking for one.

Put in your request to modify the 504. Maybe you can stretch out the date for when this project is supposed to happen by doing so.

Its not nixed.  Just moved to a later date (TBD) in January.
I predict that my ds will come home from school Friday and tell me he was blamed for the change.  I feel it coming. 
thanks for the heads up about Guittard.  I've never seen it up here.  May have my sil check at her stores in PA.