504 for College / University

[CMdeux]

I was in a different area of public service many years ago before DH was in education. What I was both trained and learned along the way is it's not up to the individual government worker what civil rights a citizen is entitled to, if it's in the job description, it's part of the system and paperwork is up to specs, I'm a neutral processor and it doesn't matter if the person in question was a dirtbag. "Favor" was a dangerous word. We were compelled to inform that we will look in to it and if it was part of our job description we would do it, we do not do favors. At times that meant the worst dirtballs exercised their civil rights to the max (rudely, too) because they knew the system so well, and others who weren't so bad who did not know system exploits maybe had a harder time but our hands were tied we could not 'help'.

Point? When you get static ask if it is their job description to process a 504 underscoring you have the binding paperwork all in order and up to date.

On school choice I'd pick a school over quality of program and not school size, tier. Some top tier programs run from non-top tier schools. Looking even further ahead a thriving, involved alumni assocation could be important for networking, as are the faculty ties to industry, and how rich the internship choices are for students. Not to harp on adjuncts themselves but it might not be a good choice for a place top heavy on adjuncts, it depends on how they are professionally qualified versus academically qualified. Maybe CM has better advice.

Not necessarily "better" so much as to note "in addition to" and science/math/engineering specific. 

MANY of the faculty in those disciplines will be dealing with a language barrier in addition to the cognitive one in understand a student's needs when those are "special" or covered under ADA.  This is certainly highly problematic at research institutions, and less so at undergraduate ones.  Be aware that the student often matters as much as the institution's basic research reputation in determining how good an education can be had in a particular subjecct.

Put another way?  I'd look MUCH more closely at where an undergraduate program SENDS ITS GRADS than I would at what publications its faculty generate year to year, or in grant $$, or in terms of other externalities of that nature.  Those things are largely connected to graduate education.  Many students/parents get taken in by that phenomenon as undergrads in the sciences; but the bottom line is that PHENOMENAL grad schools-- legendary ones, even-- do not necessarily have "good" (well, 'better,' perhaps) undergraduate education programs in those same disciplines.  If it's all about the research, then often those colleges/departments don't really see undergrads as anything but a necessary means to the ultimate end.

Personally, most of the successful scientists that I know (and a fair number of the successful medical professionals, too) went to small-to-medium sized public institutions-- frequently those without PhD programs-- for undergraduate studies, and THEN went to big-name schools for graduate work in their interest area.  Honestly?  That's what I'd advise serious and promising students to do.  The reason is that at a PhD granting institution, undergraduates are somewhat less likely to get hands-on experience themselves, and very much more likely to be handled by adjunct, teaching faculty, and GRADUATE student TA's.  That is such a mixed bag that it is a serious source of risk on the LTFA management front, as well.

  Even with the very best of intentions, a 24-26yo graduate student who speaks poor English isn't going to be of a lot of help in maintaining a food-free environment or in recognizing risks/helping to work around them.  First of all, they don't really have a lot of "authority" to, even if they did try. 

I wouldn't necessarily steer by institutional size.  That's not the factor to look at, IMO.  There are tiny graduate programs, and there are enormous undergraduate ones.  It just all depends on what the ultimate mission of the institution/department happens to be.  For undergraduate training, look for one that sees that as a serious goal, rather than the ugly half-sibling of the golden child of the graduate program.     The factor to examine is how much time real, tenured/tenure-track faculty actually spend in student contact, and how much of that contact is lower-division, undergraduate time.  What percentage of freshman labs are taught by graduate students and even undergraduate teaching assistants? 

Those courses with "TBA" instructors that are a revolving door of graduate students who can't get RA's to support themselves are where there are going to be major implementation inconsistancies and problems.  In my experience, anyway.

A good college education can be had many places.  A good foundation for future study may also be found many places, often those which are not known for that particular field of study.

Now, would I send a student who was interested in molecular biology to Chico State?  Errr... probably not my first choice, no.  But for separate reasons, I'd also steer such a student away from Berkeley or UW for undergraduate studies.  If it's a likely area of interest for graduate studies, and you're looking at a student with the capacity for a likely terminal degree at some point-- then save it for that.  Another reason for doing that has to do with "diversification" of educational experience.  This is something that matters a great deal professionally in science PhD's and MS degrees.  It's the reason why even the top 10 leaders tend NOT to 'keep' their undergrads for grad school.  It's not that they aren't good students... it's that it isn't right for the students themselves, in most cases, to have such an insular educational background.    The exception is in Vet and Pharmacy schools, where many programs prefer the institution's own undergrads in considering applications.

Hopefully that makes sense and is helpful.

[CMdeux]

TT, school size seems like a real issue, because of her MFA.  The small schools would know who she is.  At a school of 35,000, I fear that she would just fall through the cracks.  She could be lying on the sidewalk unconscious and maybe no one would notice.  And the dining hall seems much riskier at a large school, even for an occasional meal.  When they are so high volume, I worry about mistakes more and also higher turnover if they have more employees.

What do you mean by "adjuncts"?

Adjunct faculty are basically contract employees who are paid by the course to teach undergraduate/orphan courses that none of the tenure-track faculty want to teach, or to teach "surplus" courses that basically exceed the institution's capacity in some way.  Introductory coursework not intended for a department's own majors or remedial courses frequently fall into that category.

As pressures mount on institutions to reduce costs without raising tuition, adjunct teaching becomes more popular, as well.  Paying someone with a PhD and nothing better to do a flat fee of 7-8K (and hey-- NO BENEFITS, since they aren't really your employee and you have no real ties to one another otherwise) to teach your Chem 101 course lectures for the year is MUCH more appealing than paying a new hire 75K+ bennies, and giving them office space, lab space, and turning them loose on your graduate program.  KWIM?


Adjunct = disposable teaching corps.

Professoriat = the heart of the institution's continuity in teaching and mentorship of students.

HTH.  Sorry if that seems cynical, but that is the bottom line.  Adjuncts don't DO a lot of the actitivies that are expected of regular faculty.  They don't have advisees, they don't serve on committees, they don't do university outreach, they don't develop courses, they don't write textbooks, etc. etc.



Re: a school small enough for everyone to "know" your DD? 

Unrealistic, probably.  In all seriousness, with a STEM interest, that is just not feasible in most places.  Even with a college population of 3-6K, it's going to be her sophomore year before anyone truly "knows" who she is well enough to be of real assistance in a situation like that.     Truly.  My own undergrad institution was of that size.  It wasn't until my sophomore year that I got to know the faculty and staff in my own department well enough that they knew me on sight-- and really, I spent 6-10  hours a day there. Attrition from STEM is very high the first two years.   

[nameless]

ooooohh yes - everything CM just posted above about undergrad programs in the sciences   It is extremely rare an undergrad will go to the grad school at their undergrad institution. It's actually "frowned upon" in astronomy and physics --- you go elsewhere to get well rounded and experience different faculty and situations.

Honest truth? Where you go for undergrad sometimes, kinda doesn't matter. It's how you DO at that school. It's how you spend your summers (going for an REU (research experience for undergraduates) in the summers or finding other undergrad summer research...for the sciences.

Also quite truthful --- the professors at small 4-yr (have no graduate programs, or very little) colleges are much much better teachers and mentors. They are there to teach, not to do research.

What science is she interested in, besides math?

That all being said --- I was PA/TNA in college. As a freshman I went to a small local school, but stayed on campus (I became 'independent' by a court document at 18 to get better financial aid). I lived in a freshman dorm and b/c the food service was quite clueless, the housing Director got me a stipulation I didn't have to buy into the food plan. Further, I could have a car on campus b/c I had to go grocery shopping. This was all before 'food allergies' were a hidden disability in the early 90's.  I lived off a dorm size fridge, hot pot, microwave, and a hidden toaster oven (illegal appliance, hidding in my closet or in my car during inspections and used VERY carefully).  Then next year I got in an on-campus apartment with 12 other gals and 1 kitchen. I used my own pots/pans/cooking/eating stuff, kept clean in my room. I used my own dish sponge and towels. My own food, etc. Pain in the @ss? Sure thing, but I really didn't dwell on it.  I'd still make lunch or dinner and go down to the dining hall with others just to be social. It all worked out.

So there are ways to live on-campus. It can depend on the dorms and situations and who can live where. There are ALWAYS exceptions, trust me. I ended up working in residence life in a few schools to help pay for school and learned a lot.  Now - the "freshman experience" of living in a dorm with your peers I think, is a good thing. You are part of a community. Stick a freshman into a senior apartment...ehhhhh...there might be problems.  Some colleges/universities have grad student apartments too, and that might be an option/exception. Get through the first year and then live off-campus and it becomes easier.

FWIW - and I know you were just kidding...but large 40k student population university settings does not mean she'll be ignored or can't find help.  Sometimes there are more services and more people to help at the large schools.

Of all my experiences --- and I enrolled full-time at 4 different colleges/universities and took classes at over a dozen through a 10yr stint to get my undergrad degree. I really really liked the small 4-yr only schools the best. The instruction is different, and that can be very important for sciences or math or engineering. There were no 500 or 2000 person lectures, everything was small and personal and differentiated learning.  I honestly loved the science engineering school the best (WPI in central MA).

Adrienne

[CMdeux]

Yup.

I graduated in a class of 6 majors.  80% of that department's majors, on average, went on to earn MS and PhD degrees, and two in my class alone at tier 1 institutions, to boot.  I went to what had traditionally been a "teacher's" college.  It had a solid, but not "remarkable" program in Biology, Chemistry, Math, and Physics.  Those were your major choices in the sciences.

I've never regretted that.  Never.  It was inexpensive, it was a small-- intimate, even-- program, and each and every major in the program was given individual attention by all of the faculty in the program.  I got to actually TOUCH and OPERATE instrumentation that, while not "state of the art" was certainly real enough to get the job done, and as a result, my skills in grad school were far superior to many of my peers who'd done undergrad studies at graduate institutions.  THEY had good theoretical knowledge, but little hands-on experience.

The difference meant being able to hit the ground running with a research project, as opposed to needing to get comfortable not having instruments operated by technicians or post-docs.

[notnutty]

What does your DD think? Obviously the decision on where to go will be up to her. Most colleges will not even discuss academics or medical issues with the parent. 

[Carefulmom]

What does your DD think? Obviously the decision on where to go will be up to her. Most colleges will not even discuss academics or medical issues with the parent. 

Well, obviously with the cost of a college education being $150,000 - $200,000 the decision will be a joint decision.  Dd wants to do whatever will give her the best chance of getting accepted to a certain graduate program that she is currently interested in.  They only accept 4 - 6 students per year.  Of course, she could change her mind about what she wants to do, but she wants to keep options open.

Thanks CM Deux and nameless.  Very helpful information.

[notnutty]

I didn't mean to offend you.  The point I was trying to make is that you may find this process frustrating because most colleges will not even discuss your dd's accommodations or health status once she is 18, so I think it is important to decide on a school where your dd is going to feel empowered to manage/advocate for her specific needs.

If a school with 50,000 students does not seem overly interested in accommodations, she may not have the time or the means to fight that battle...and you will essentially be "locked out" of the process.

That is the only point I was trying to make...

[CMdeux]

That's completely true, Notnutty. 

Parental involvement at the collegiate level is mostly seen as "inappropriate" by college administrators, too.  In that particular respect, once our children are 18, as college students, we must become "uninvolved" at least as far as official channels go-- because it may actually do as much harm as good.

  It signals that our children are incapable or over-protected, even if that is untrue.  It may make it harder for our kids to advocate forcefully for themselves if the college doesn't take them seriously, YK?  One of the quickest ways for colleges not to take them seriously is for a mama (or papa) bear to be leading the charge, since it signals that: a) the student probably has a serious lack of maturity relative to the demands of the environment, and b) parents are overprotective pains in the rear end who want the school to take up where they left off.  Whether or not either thing is true, it's obviously NOT a helpful thing for a child with LTFA to get that reputation.

  That's not to say that parents shouldn't be involved in guiding their own kids, mind.  Just that you can't expect the college to act in loco parentis, no matter how willing you and your (technically adult) child both are about that point.

So vetting college campuses with our children?  Great idea.

Helping them strategize?  Also fantastic.

Making those phone calls ourselves or offering to "handle" meetings while they are college students?  Meh..... NO.  Not unless there are serious problems (the kind that would lead the student to disenroll or be permamanently harmed/injured... or the sort that you wonder if you need an attorney for).

[Carefulmom]

Oh, she`ll be making the decision about where to go before she`s 18.  We`ll need to know about accomodations before deciding where she is going.  She won`t be 18 yet.  She would be 18 by the time she starts college, but obviously she isn`t going to show up the week before school starts and start asking for accomodations.  We are doing our research now.  She is 16.

Don`t worry, notnutty.  You didn`t offend me.

[CMdeux]

Yes, early research and planning/strategizing is a must.

I'm so glad that you're sharing this process with everyone here, Carefulmom.  It's really important for those with kids in middle school and 9th-10th grade to see the timeline as it unfolds.   

[nameless]

Though I will note on the parental role in college...

It's true they want the parents not involved, for the student to take responsibility and handle problems.

Yet...the include the parent's income in financial aid. 

It baffled me when I was in school. My mom could contribute ZERO to my education. ZERO. She made little money and my step-father (whose income was included) didn't want to contribute anything, nor saw he had to. He'd only been around a few years. He was a douche anyway for other reasons and she's since divorced...I digress.

I ended up getting legally emancipated from my mother and step-father when I was 17 (I started school when I was 17, turned 18 that first fall semester).  It was the only way for me to get full financial need based aid. I didn't live with them over breaks or summers either (I didn't want to). I found ways to stay on campus and live there and make extra money doing so.

Anyway - I find it all funny.  "No parents"  Oh...except their wallets please, that is expected!

Adrienne

[CMdeux]

Yes.  And the story of "but my parents DON'T support me" was all too common in my generation of students, I'll add. 

[nameless]

Yes.  And the story of "but my parents DON'T support me" was all too common in my generation of students, I'll add.

I remember being in the financial aid office BAWLING b/c the FA officer just couldn't believe my "parents" were not contributing anything. I was already on school health insurance, I lived on-campus even though I was 20 min from home. It took the Director to see me in there a few times crying my eyes out not knowing how I'd pay for the spring semester (fall was paid for by savings SS $ paid to me when my dad died when I was 16) --- the Director finally whispered "look up emancipation" to me one day. 

Ugh. Anyway.

Adrienne

[Macabre]

I made the comment in another thread that when my son's high school was not keen to keep the 504 plan (we moved to a new state, and he started high school here), one of the things I said was that we are not interested in changing his eligibility status for several reasons, one of them being that the 504 can travel with him to college.

A discussion ensued (hopefully we can move those helpful posts to this thread).

We have a few other threads that deal with this time of life, such as SATs and food allergies (will link to later), but it would be helpful to have a thread that deals specifically with 504 plans on the college level.

A helpful article on www.wrightslaw.org:

Accommodations for College Students
Dr. Mike Brown, Professor School Psychology, East Carolina University
http://www.wrightslaw.com/advoc/ltrs/accoms.colleges.drbrown.htm

[Macabre]

ADA Q & A: SECTION 504 & POSTSECONDARY EDUCATION
http://www.pacer.org/publications/adaqa/504.asp

Q. How does the ADA and Section 504 affect admissions requirements?

A. The postsecondary program cannot have eligibility requirements that screen out people with physical or mental disabilities. Application forms cannot ask applicants if they have a history of mental illness or any other disability. Institutions may impose criteria that relate to safety risks but these criteria must be based on actual risk and not on stereotypes or assumptions. It is also illegal for an institution to serve students with disabilities differently because it believes its insurance costs will be increased. (It is illegal for insurance companies to refuse to insure, continue to insure, or limit the amount of insurance solely because individuals with disabilities are to be included in a program unless the practice is based on sound actuarial principles or actual experience.)