504 for hs going to be a fight

[twinturbo]

DH and I agreed on one thing when it comes to 504 time: it has to be an education worth fighting for. I have friends that move to change school districts even without FA.

[CMdeux]

<snip> I'm just wondering, if they really think the kid is "on his/her own" anyway, if the 504 ACTUALLY adds value at the HS age, and realistically, it comes with some risks with respect to college applications. <snip>

I wouldn't disclose the allergy during the application process.  It's not relevant to assessing whether the student is academically suited to the university.  I would disclose the allergy once acceptance had been granted/all financial aid sorted out and the student decided to attend the school.  In the same vein, I would not disclose the allergy during a job interview either.  An interviewer is legally forbidden from asking about a disability, so why disclose a hidden disability that may not have a material impact on your ability to attend school/perform a job.

I've heard it's on some college applications.  (and private HS / prep school applications too).

Not those which have been properly vetted by legal, I'm thinking.

UNLESS-- these are schools which do not fall under section 504 (that is, that section of ADA-- which is title II, I believe. ??  ( The educational portion). 

The thing is, the OTHER sections don't apply to publically funded schools or to government services... but they DO apply to "places of public accommodation."

What that means is that it is still illegal to discriminate on the basis of disability alone when the disabled applicant/customer is otherwise capable.  This is (according to DOJ) about policies, practices, and procedures.  If application procedures are discriminatory-- and maybe if they just SEEM that way or collect information which COULD be used to discriminate-- then that is illegal.

Now, what is not illegal is the question which asks "Are there any accommodations which you will need?"  But that is quite a different question, and usually it's asked once you've passed an initial hurdle of some sort-- and would therefore NEED said accommodations in order to proceed (as to a job interview onsite, to attend a college, etc.).

The only reasons for denying those accommodations are:  a) reasonableness (since this isn't under section 504, remember?), and b) fundamental nature of the program/activity.   So you can't tell a pastry class at Cordon Bleu to go wheat-free, even if you need that accommodation... and you can't ask for a building remodel so that you can live in a particular historic dorm.

Legal offices associated with academia are VERY serious about not exposing themselves to this kind of liability.  Truly.

TT and I both know this to be true, and I think that Nameless can vouch for this one, too.     YOU decide how much to share and when.  YKW's strategy is completely correct.  If you aren't ASKING for an accommodation, you have nothing to share.

[Macabre]

Can we move the college/504 posts to a dedicated thread?  That way we'll be able to find them later and stay on track here.

I found some good college 504 content to share.

I've created a thread here:  504 Plans and College / University

[rainbow]

Yes, sorry...didn't mean to confuse Mfa's issue here.

[Mfamom]

well that was an interesting meeting.  Conference room table of 10 filled with different people sitting with their laptops open
started rocky...
they said his plan is babyish.  they don't do sub plans, they don't do this or that. 
based on the Nurse's model that this is "real Life" folks. 

I thought the focus would be on eligibility which it wasn't.  I asked them what accommodations are applicable for hs.  I told them my hot point is inclusion
they don't really get it. 
They gave me what i asked for, but there are still some points that we were at odds about. 
need help in dealing with the "figure it out" attitude
they will not put kabosh on food based rewards or celebrations in classrooms.
I pretty much hate the tone of this school right now and see what others have said about their attitudes and why they sent their kids to the other hs. 

not sure what to do

[CMdeux]

Well, as TT noted-- what's the payoff for putting up with this crap?

Because you just KNOW that the instructional staff isn't going to be more accommodating than administration.  It works the other way around sometimes, but administration tends to set the tone for things.

What are your DS' options for self-advocacy in this setting after this meeting?

Does he have the right to remove himself from unsafe environments?  If not-- he MUST.  That is almost certainly an accommodation that is going to be carried forward in his life after high school.

The inclusion bit, well-- good luck with that one.  High school is inherently less likely to view inclusion as an appropriate goal or at least as an overarching one which is important.

While in principle, I agree that this is the time to transition to the "real world," there is still the fact that school isn't "optional" in the way that one's choice of friends, housing, and employment are.

[Macabre]

Mfamom--your post reads exactly like mine after my meeting.  That is exactly what happened.  Exactly.  Most folks in response to my post honed in on one aspect (announcing his FA to the class) and not the entire experience I was venting about, but wow--it sounds like you and I are having the same experience with our kiddos yet again.  But more than a day apart this time. 

Yeah, we just kind of gave up on all the food. It is there. Period. And LOTS more of it than middle school (and maybe even elementary).  They did not get inclusion. At all.  At all. 

Sorry--I was trying to scan our 504 to send you.  Sounds like you don't need it. 

[twinturbo]

On what to do take what I say with a huge grain of academic salt, which is not to say is more smarty-pants but to reveal my bias upfront. I'm married to a tenure-track faculty member who sits on a graduate admissions board and teaches as well and what is coming in to him and other instructors are kids with increasing need for remedial materials before they can even take some core requirements. Their writing is typically atrocious.

It would probably neither unfair nor inaccurate to label us what many people think of as 'tiger parents' even though that label (and book, and author) is extremely misleading. Nonetheless, (and this is all IMHO) HS should be college prep and from this end of the pipeline it's imperative that many kids are not getting the appropriate prep for college in the American highschool. I don't know of a single family that shares our academic outlook that hasn't had to supplement essentially a community college education while using FAPE public school as a social outlet and somewhere to stow the kids during the daytime. When the time comes for us to pick the next school we're going to do as most of the other families we know do--pick up and move to the district with the best school in the nation if we can.

I think you should explore all options based on what the goals are and supplement in whichever and however you can afford in time, money and effort. Minimize the school's sole impact and responsibility for DS's education. Extra-curriculars, community courses, volunteer programs, internships, arguably minors in internships can be nightmarish for a private company but they are out there as well as government programs.

You could divide it responsibility, delegation and autonomy this way. Parent knows life, academic pipeline, workforce realities, parent can evaluate schools. At some point you may want to turn over some of the decision making to DS, and I have not had the pleasure of the teen years yet but I have some boys with serious autonomy issues.

It is ironic that in many ways college minimizes the food bs and is far more active and on board with ADAA, perhaps because there is a paying client model involved and no parent egos, the focus is on acquiring, retaining and graduating students that bolster the school's image and ranking even though they are technically not for profit.

At some point we will be leaving private school to stare down the barrel of that 504 but when we do it's going to be a fight in the best district possible. I also want the kids to have a parallel education in the wider world with a separate social group to properly frame public K-12 school as one avenue, one facet of their whole education.

For instance, how would you feel about a charter, magnet or vocational school? What does he excel at? Does he have an active social life through sports or community activity already? Would you consider taking a year out for some homeschool if you're considering moving anyhow? Could you do a lot of travel during that time? Nothing world shaking there's always plenty to see in locales. I'm not religious but maybe a mission together for a half year, more if you like it. Volunteer long term at a zoo, 4H, junior engineering.

Zag if you can't zig. It's not everyone's cup of tea but it might be worth a moment or two consideration. As long as somewhere in there is objectively measured academic success some extraordinary extra-curricular activity could separate him from the pack in the positive sense on college admissions. Even if he's not college bound it could help transition him to the work force with more focus than his peers.

[CMdeux]

TT, DD's friends all simply refer to us as "honorary Asian" parents.  LOL.  Including those of her friends who possess the authentic article, I should add.  We're far from unique in our social circle. 

The bottom line is that it's not about appearances for most of us, and it's not about resume building per se with our kids, either.  We're just absolutely DETERMINED to see our kids not leave home in possession of some kinds of deficits that local public (and private, for that matter) schools seem to think very little about these days. 

Test scores and test prep can get stuffed, basically, because it don't mean a thing in the face of a student that can't write cogently, understand the boundaries of academic dishonesty, or manage college algebra, and will need a year (or more) of remediation prior to being truly ready for college material. 

I, too, would not really hesitate to explore other options if you're getting a "we're all about holding a major FOOD FEST... because... that's FUN" attitude.  In high school??  That's not the kind of preparatory environment, in all honesty, that I want for my child.  That sounds like an environment where a lot of time is wasted on seeming appealing, and it's often more for the staff than the students' actual benefits.

Are the academics very good, Mfamom?  Is there some other draw for your son/family at this particular school that would lead you to want to stick with it?  If the answers are "no, not really" then it might well be time to look at other options.

[Mfamom]

According to the latest ratings, the school is in the top 20 hs in nj.  But the tone if the school, im not loving.  Not living the athletic aspect , as we were bumped down a divisionand there is little challenge.  We have stuck it out because it was supposed to be an amazing school but im not lovingit

[yelloww]

And didn't he want to switch HS's already?

[Mfamom]

the other hs is the "kinder gentler" hs (word on the street), but they always rank academically below the one he attends.  this year they dropped down into the low 40s or high 50s.  they won't let you transfer there now due to enrollment already high.
I would consider sending him to private at this point (thought about it end of summer).  Its so expensive though $15k ++
would rather MOVE

[rainbow]

First, it is unbelievable that most colleges seem to get LTFA, ADAA, 504, etc much better than K-12 school districts. Food rewards and parties in HIGH SCHOOL?! So "elementary" (use that one on the nurse!).   

Second, sounds like you won't be happy there. Knowing your DS is a happy, assertive, well adjusted, good student and exceptional athlete...I think he'd do well in most schools.  Are his friends at this HS?  What does he want to do?  Any chance he will have a great spring sports season to mitigate some of this?

Sounds like main issue is the administrative staff (principals, nurse, some teachers).  I know the school is rated well.  I'm sure the education is "fine".  I think private (prep) schools may offer a better education but I also think some of the prep schools work the kids VERY hard.  But,  I think those schools love their top athletes too.  I'm sure he'd do well all-around.

The thing is, if you move, it is hard to *know* what you are getting unless you have really good inside information. 

Didn't realize the meeting was actually occurring today.  Had they rescheduled you?  And what is WITH that nurse's attitude?! I'd call her out on that.  If a teacher gives a food allergic kid a reward "chocolate" and it happens to have hidden hazelnut, IMO the school staff is responsible.  REAL DUMB to give food rewards.  They might want to educate themselves on the pervasiveness of LTFA.

[Mfamom]

yeah, I was supposed to have the meeting Tues (had already been rescheduled before and they double booked and I had to come back on wed)
the nurse and the staff there (various teachers/school psychologist etc) were all very "we're in the real world", this is the "big leagues" blah blah blah.
I said, sure HS means more independence etc, but my son is 14 years old.  He's a great advocate, but the plan is not all about him fending for himself.  He doesn't have control over lesson plans, party planning etc. 
I asked how a teacher could offer a  food reward that is not attractive to him or all the students  that my ds would not be motivated by that type of reward. I asked how a teacher can plan a classroom "party" and not make it safe for all the students.  I lined it up with same principles as bullying....making a person feel left out etc.  (I've heard that in spite of our elem. and middle school taking hard stand on bullying, this school turns their heads) so I really wasn't surprised.
then at one point, they were talking about Real World Model and I said you can believe youre teaching these children to live in the real world, but you DO have a responsiblity to give him a safe and inclusive learning environment.  I sort of went off on her....(later dh commented that I might read the book how to win friends and influence others LOL)
So, for now, he does have the designation with some fluffy accommodations.  I'll just start noting situations as they arise and go from there. 
I'm not worried about ds eating something random.  I'm more concerned about him avoiding some of the social scene etc.  Apparently quite a culture of food.  The vending machines are full of peanut crap.  (straight up peanuts, reeces, snickers etc). 
we'll see what happens.

[CMdeux]

Document EVERYTHING.

With photos if he can-- and time/date-stamp by sending them to you on your phone/e-mail.

Every single time he feels unsafe in a classroom, he's going to need to do that and then GET UP AND LEAVE.

I predict that this isn't going to go very well, myself.  But I also predict that your DS will gain rock solid skills as a result.  If you're challenged by administration re: this behavior, you can respond that whether they like it or not, this is the only management option they've left him.

The alternative is knowingly exposing himself to such high risks.  Which also exposes them to TREMENDOUS liability legally if anything should go wrong (as it almost certainly will eventually in that scenario).

  Morons.